David Lee....

[Cosmic]

Kosmovitelli of RGM wrote this on Lee. Kosmo for those that don't know is probably one of the most intelligent and level headed Knicks fans I've ever seen. Probably knows more about the game than the entire rest of that forum combined. Never has an agenda.

Give it a read...it's a good one. All of his posts are.



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I think you all noticed David Lee has been playing too many minutes (46 and 48 minutes the last two games) and attempting too many shots recently.

About the minutes, David Lee is averaging 36.9 minutes per game this season but he played an average of 40.4 minutes the last 21 games (I started the count on december 4 : big win against Atlanta, beginning of a four game winning streak and the start of our playoff push).

About the FG attempts, David Lee took 574 shots during the first 40 games of the season, it's approx 14.4 per game. The interesting stat is that if you add the games when Lee attempted 14 FGs or more, we lost 14 times (and won 8 times). For what it's worth, Lee averaged 11.7 shots per game last season.

If you compare with Chris Bosh, he's averaging 35.3 minutes per game and attempted 587 FGs (approx 14.3 per game). Stats with 14 shots attempted or more : 12 wins and 10 losses.

Both players average 11.2 rebounds per game. David Lee has a better FG% with 0.561 (0.522 for Bosh) but Lee's averaging 19.3 pts per game (23.8 for Bosh). Bosh shoots as much as Lee (14.3 per game), he has a worse FG% but he's still the most productive player because there's a pretty big difference in their stats and you probably already guessed what it is : Lee shot 166 FTs this season and Bosh 378. Bosh is going to the FT line twice as much as Lee (2.3 to be more precise, approx 9,2 FT attempts per game for Bosh and 4.3 for Lee). Bosh is going to the FT line almost as much as Dwight Howard (who's averaging 10 FTs per game). If you compare with Zach Randolph, he's averaging 36.8 minutes, 20.5 pts, 11.5 reb, 16.1 FG attempts (way more than Lee and Bosh) and just like Lee he's not going to the FT line that much : 196 times in 39 games so approx 4.9 per game. I also took a look at Curry's stats when he was force-fed by Isiah and had his most productive season in NY in 2006-2007 : Curry attempted 12.5 shots per game and was going to the FT line 8.1 times per game. Curry was shooting less than Lee right now and although he was a terrific scoring option and a post player capable of commanding a double team, he was going less to the FT line than Bosh (Bosh averaged 8.5 FT per game that same 2006-2007 season).
I also noticed Chris Bosh had 9 blocks this month (Zach Randolph 3 blocks), you want the number for Lee ? It's easy : 0 ! Gallinari had 6 blocks this month and he's playing less than Lee.

If you want another comparison : Gallo is averaging 11 shots per game and Al Harrington 15 (more than Lee ! LOL). The most ridiculous thing for Al Harrington is he's only playing 30.6 mins per game.


I'll end it here. I'm not trying to say Lee is a bad player. Obviously he's a good player but is he currently a better player than Zach Randolph ? Considering how he's playing right now, he seems to be going in the Randolph direction. And I don't like that. If Lee continues to shoot that much but can't expand his game, can't draw double teams, go to the FT line and put opposing players in foul trouble or defend and block shots, you have to wonder if he has a future on this team. We already knew he was bad defender but I see little effort on defense (and the incredibly weak number of block shots clearly shows that he's not trying that hard for a player with his size).
I already saw fans claiming we should have inked him to a long term contract last summer because Lee's worth $14 mil per season right now but it ain't true. I don't even think he's worth more than $10 mil per season at this point. He's a complementary player, not a first option like he's used now.

Mike d'Antoni has to stop the circus with Lee and Harrington playing too many minutes and shooting the ball too much. They're not versatile enough to log so many minutes. D'Antoni has to find some balance with the roster.

[Cosmic]

You guys know how I feel about Lee. I think he's a fraud in the sense that his double doubles do NOT cover up what he gives up on the other end. I'm not even sure how much of an impact his game has to the team. He's been on the sidelines plenty of times when we're winning. He is not an impact player.

He plays like 14M dollar man on one side of the ball and like a 1M dollar man on the other.

I really don't want to re-sign this guy....unless he'd be a 6M per year bench player at 25 minutes per game. For any more...and he becomes a focal point. David Lee has no business being the focal point of an offense! At least not one that wants to win.

[J9Starks3]

Hey Cos - good read. One thing I'll say that Kos (any relation ) leaves out is the fact that, by those numbers Lee shoots less than Bosh, and here is why...

If you shoot and get fouled, it does not count as a shot attempt. So if Bosh is getting to the line almost 10 times a game, compared to 5 times a game for Lee ... that means hes getting 2 or 3 more shot attempts that arent being counted in the total. So in essence, Bosh gets 20 or shots a game total (14 takes plus about 5 they call a foul on) and Lee shoots about 17 a game (14 takes plus about 3 they call a foul on)...

Doesnt change the fact that the guy is totally useless on defense, but thought Id point it out... Its not David's offensive efficiency that gets me I guess..

[msg33]

quite interesting

[Riddler2222]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

You guys know how I feel about Lee. I think he's a fraud in the sense that his double doubles do NOT cover up what he gives up on the other end. I'm not even sure how much of an impact his game has to the team. He's been on the sidelines plenty of times when we're winning. He is not an impact player.

Reminds me of another NBA Stat whore named Zach Randolph. Image if a GM actually had both Randolph and Lee on their team at the same time. errr umm ahhh.... wait a minute....

sorry couldn't resist.

[Riddler2222]

Hey Cosmic, have you ever tried to keep track of his +/- stats from the boxscores? Lee is +9 right now versus the Pistons.

[X]

what'ss interesting is looking at 82games at the knicks "5-man units" stats

units that stink:
Duhon-Hughes-Chandler-Gallinari-Lee
Duhon-Hughes-Chandler-Harrington-Lee

units that rock:
Duhon-Chandler-Gallinari-Jeffries-Lee
Robinson-Duhon-Chandler-Harrington-Lee
Duhon-Hughes-Gallinari-Jeffries-Lee

duhon and lee are on both lists. jeffries/lee seems to be a good two-man combo.

[X]

http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK12.HTM

[X]

also, until you play a real Center on the court, it will always look bad for Lee matching up against real Centers. ya'll are silly expecting him to be effective as a C. he should be getting props for having to play up a position. he's kind of undersized for a PF. y'all play him at Center and expect what from a +/- ? I know he's not Grandmama, but sheesh.

[J9Starks3]

Originally Posted by X

also, until you play a real Center on the court, it will always look bad for Lee matching up against real Centers. ya'll are silly expecting him to be effective as a C. he should be getting props for having to play up a position. he's kind of undersized for a PF. y'all play him at Center and expect what from a +/- ? I know he's not Grandmama, but sheesh.

The problem with that...as a PF playing C he at least has a quickness edge... there arent a lot of great centers left in the NBA, but there are a ton of really good PFs that if he was matched up with them, what is his advantage? Hes still not stronger, hes no longer quicker ... Lee vs. the KGs, Duncans, Amares, Boshs, Gasols, Dirks, etc would not fair much better IMO

[kiyaman]

Originally Posted by J9Starks3

The problem with that...as a PF playing C he at least has a quickness edge... there arent a lot of great centers left in the NBA, but there are a ton of really good PFs that if he was matched up with them, what is his advantage? Hes still not stronger, hes no longer quicker ... Lee vs. the KGs, Duncans, Amares, Boshs, Gasols, Dirks, etc would not fair much better IMO

The main POST had me mixed-up for a second by comparing Lee to a player (Bosh) that will demand MAX money....Lee was asking for $10M which is a long way from Max money ($18M to $20M).
I would rather pay Lee $10-$12M per than the $18M per for Bosh, Amare, or Dirk (whom all would need a hustler in the paint like Lee in their lineup).

Kos....did make a great point about Lee receiving 36 to 40 minutes per game, shorten Lee's minutes per game to 28 to 32 minutes at the PF position, then he becomes a strong dominating factor for the team.
Lee has a great passing ability to hit his bigmen-teammates down-low....get him a decent center!

Lee....has no center, or no PF, in his lineups for the last two seasons.
KG....has Perkins, Big Baby, and Rasheed
Duncan....has Mcdyess, Bonner, and Blair
Bosh....has Bargnani and Johnson
Gasol.....has Bynum and Odom
Dirk....has Dampier, Gooden, and Marion
Amare....has Frye, Hill, Amunson, Dudley .......

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by Riddler2222

Reminds me of another NBA Stat whore named Zach Randolph. Image if a GM actually had both Randolph and Lee on their team at the same time. errr umm ahhh.... wait a minute....

sorry couldn't resist.

You're not far off. He has turned into Zach Randolph.

As to plus minus stats I dislike them. They don't tell the story properly.

I prefer game flows.

http://popcornmachine.net/

Go to that site, click on "game flow" of any game.

Once there... mouse over anything on the page with your cursor and a popup window with more details comes up.

The site is like crack.

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by J9Starks3

The problem with that...as a PF playing C he at least has a quickness edge... there arent a lot of great centers left in the NBA, but there are a ton of really good PFs that if he was matched up with them, what is his advantage? Hes still not stronger, hes no longer quicker ... Lee vs. the KGs, Duncans, Amares, Boshs, Gasols, Dirks, etc would not fair much better IMO

Agreed.

Lee at PF would be even worse. He would get torched even more than he does now. At least Harrington or Gallo or Hill can keep up with PFs even if they're not that great at defending. Lee couldn't possibly keep up with the quick footed PFs.

Not that there'd be much of a difference though. He gets torched anyway.

[J9Starks3]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

Agreed.

Lee at PF would be even worse. He would get torched even more than he does now. At least Harrington or Gallo or Hill can keep up with PFs even if they're not that great at defending. Lee couldn't possibly keep up with the quick footed PFs.

Not that there'd be much of a difference though. He gets torched anyway.

IF youre going to keep Lee, I think its best at C with a very strong defensive PF next to him that can protect the paint. Thats why weve played best wtih Jeffries at PF next to Lee, however, that combo is only good enough to get you 30-38 wins a season....

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by J9Starks3

IF youre going to keep Lee, I think its best at C with a very strong defensive PF next to him that can protect the paint. Thats why weve played best wtih Jeffries at PF next to Lee, however, that combo is only good enough to get you 30-38 wins a season....

When Jared Jeffries is making you look good....it's time to move on.

I know what you are saying though and you're right.

Thing is I don't want to play that game. I don't want to talk about one player and then say he will work out IF ONLY we get another player to HIDE his mistakes!

That's not the way to build a team or play a game.

Here is why: That mythical player will have to constantly LEAVE HIS OWN ASSIGNMENT to cover for Lee. Teams will get wise to that, play a fake, and then that player that is left open will be dunking all over us.

You just can't win like that. You can't just say "If only we had a defensive PF then Curry would be fine!" ... "If only we had a defensive PG then Crawford would be fine."

You can't win like that and you WONT win like that. You need players who can stand on their own two feet. David Lee cannot.

David Lee would be an AMAZING player for say...the SPURS...off the BENCH...for 25 minutes per game.

As a starter it is the Jamal Crawford effect all over again. He's only so good and if you ride him like he's your star player you WILL FAIL.

That will never change...and to be honest we all know David Lee is going to get SLOWER and SLOWER and SLOWER as he ages. Not a good look.

[J9Starks3]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

When Jared Jeffries is making you look good....it's time to move on.

I know what you are saying though and you're right.

Thing is I don't want to play that game. I don't want to talk about one player and then say he will work out IF ONLY we get another player to HIDE his mistakes!

That's not the way to build a team or play a game.

Here is why: That mythical player will have to constantly LEAVE HIS OWN ASSIGNMENT to cover for Lee. Teams will get wise to that, play a fake, and then that player that is left open will be dunking all over us.

You just can't win like that. You can't just say "If only we had a defensive PF then Curry would be fine!" ... "If only we had a defensive PG then Crawford would be fine."

You can't win like that and you WONT win like that. You need players who can stand on their own two feet. David Lee cannot.

David Lee would be an AMAZING player for say...the SPURS...off the BENCH...for 25 minutes per game.

As a starter it is the Jamal Crawford effect all over again. He's only so good and if you ride him like he's your star player you WILL FAIL.

That will never change...and to be honest we all know David Lee is going to get SLOWER and SLOWER and SLOWER as he ages. Not a good look.

I agree 100% ... many people may not like it, but I see only 1 starter on our team and thats Gallo... Lee, Chandler, Jeffries, Harrington, Duhon, Douglas, Hill would all make great role players off the bench... I think Lee and Chandler may be able to be your 5th starter on a really good team and be ok...but as a 1-3 option on your team, your done!

[kiyaman]

Originally Posted by J9Starks3

I agree 100% ... many people may not like it, but I see only 1 starter on our team and thats Gallo... Lee, Chandler, Jeffries, Harrington, Duhon, Douglas, Hill would all make great role players off the bench... I think Lee and Chandler may be able to be your 5th starter on a really good team and be ok...but as a 1-3 option on your team, your done!

ha ha ha ha ha.....

Now this makes a good laugh, "many people may not like it, but I see only 1 starter on our team and thats Gallo". LOL ha ha ha ha!!!!!

What Gallo showed in 41 games on this Knick team is.....he is the 8th player off the bench in the rotation. Stop! cut cut cut-out all the HYPE on Gallo!

Putting Gallo in the starting lineup for 30 or more minutes per game got the Knicks off to a 1-9 start, and a 3-14 record.
Donnie Walsh.....
threatening the Knicks roster with talks of a multiple trade being done with the Chicago Bulls, and giving Larry Hughes his first 30 minutes of playingtime this season, while DNP-Gallo for the 18th game vs Atlanta Hawks....influence the Knick players to beat the Hawks on pure "team-defense" to follow-up on such a tough win vs Hawks, the no-defense Knicks went on a "roll" to make-it a 4-game winning-streak, while holding oponents under a 100 points for 11 straight games.

The Blind-Eye Gallo-Fans never notice how all the Knick oponents kept screening the Knick-players so they could score on rookie Gallo at will.
Forcing Gallo to start participating in "man on man defense and team-defense" after his DNP and 23 mpg.

His steady right handed dribble has to many flaws, and his laziness to move without the ball by coming towards every pass (thrown to him) has caused to many of his teammates "Turnovers", b/c Gallo sets himself up behind the 3 expecting a direct pass to him only using one leg to stretchout for the pass causing a turnover to his teammates.

[mastarks]

Originally Posted by J9Starks3

I agree 100% ... many people may not like it, but I see only 1 starter on our team and thats Gallo... Lee, Chandler, Jeffries, Harrington, Duhon, Douglas, Hill would all make great role players off the bench... I think Lee and Chandler may be able to be your 5th starter on a really good team and be ok...but as a 1-3 option on your team, your done!

Chandler is a starter in the NBA not just a #5 guy and he is greater than Gallinari ( U might say Gallinari has more upside)! David is also a starter but I wouldn't want him on my team(especially when he gets 10 mill) and I agree he is not as good as his #"s + If u put him at PF (If u think thats his position) He will loose a lot of his advantages offensively and he will still struggle defensively..

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by mastarks

Chandler is a starter in the NBA not just a #5 guy and he is greater than Gallinari ( U might say Gallinari has more upside)! David is also a starter but I wouldn't want him on my team(especially when he gets 10 mill) and I agree he is not as good as his #"s + If u put him at PF (If u think thats his position) He will loose a lot of his advantages offensively and he will still struggle defensively..

Chandler and Lee are starters, on their own, on a great team. Orlando. Lakers. Spurs. Etc.

On a shitty team like we are they are starters by default because we have no other options. Does that REALLY make them "NBA STARTERS"?

Sometimes when I think of that term, "NBA STARTER", I think of a player who could start for a very good team all on his own and be a reason why that team is very good.

Are Lee and Chandler those types of players? I'm not so sure.

The other way to look at it is can either player carry a shitty team on his own? Well, I guess in some respect, they've done that here.

Chandler has really come around this season. He's definitely made me look the fool. Lee on the other hand yeah he has his stats but he also gets absolutely torched on the other end. Your net result with Lee is usually negative because he's getting jammed on by the Center he's supposed to guard, the PF who got free, the guard who penetrated. Now, it's not his fault that his teammates got burnt but as a Center it IS YOUR JOB to cover the basket. Lee stands and watches like the paying courtside customers!

Can't win like this...but of course...Lee would look just fine alongside Dwight or Duncan or LeBron.

Thing is you're still going to have plays where Lee gets torched, these guys rush to cover his mistake, and then their man is wide open for the slam dunk.

Just not a good look. I want players who are well rounded and can stand on their own two feet and don't need help.

Lee needs helped every fucking play. It's not even here or there it's EVERY PLAY.

I don't know if that's worth scratching a 2nd max FA from our 2010 wish list.

[mastarks]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

Chandler and Lee are starters, on their own, on a great team. Orlando. Lakers. Spurs. Etc.

On a shitty team like we are they are starters by default because we have no other options. Does that REALLY make them "NBA STARTERS"?

Sometimes when I think of that term, "NBA STARTER", I think of a player who could start for a very good team all on his own and be a reason why that team is very good.

Are Lee and Chandler those types of players? I'm not so sure.

The other way to look at it is can either player carry a shitty team on his own? Well, I guess in some respect, they've done that here.

Chandler has really come around this season. He's definitely made me look the fool. Lee on the other hand yeah he has his stats but he also gets absolutely torched on the other end. Your net result with Lee is usually negative because he's getting jammed on by the Center he's supposed to guard, the PF who got free, the guard who penetrated. Now, it's not his fault that his teammates got burnt but as a Center it IS YOUR JOB to cover the basket. Lee stands and watches like the paying courtside customers!

Can't win like this...but of course...Lee would look just fine alongside Dwight or Duncan or LeBron.

Thing is you're still going to have plays where Lee gets torched, these guys rush to cover his mistake, and then their man is wide open for the slam dunk.

Just not a good look. I want players who are well rounded and can stand on their own two feet and don't need help.

Lee needs helped every fucking play. It's not even here or there it's EVERY PLAY.

I don't know if that's worth scratching a 2nd max FA from our 2010 wish list.

Let me ask u this...

Is Trevor Ariza a better player than Wilson Chandler? And it was widely known that He had surgery in off season, which probably attribute to his slow start.. He was just not explosive, how many dunks, alleys did he catch in the 1st month... I still don't think he is where he was athletic wise as last season